I’m really neutral over the FLDS. Your last graph perfectly encapsulates my feelings towards them. The excessive state actions against them inspired me to look very critically at the state’s rationalizations. At face value, the state’s argument is ludicrous: even with a festive dose of gullibility and a dash of innuendo it’s difficult to see any real crime going on. Most of the arguments I’ve seen against the FLDS start with accusations that could curl your hair but have turned out to have no validity whatsoever. It’s difficult to get worked up about the rumor de jour when so many have turned out to be gossamer fantasies.

I wanted to briefly address your concern regarding my attitudes towards welfare, but I don’t know what this ‘brevity’ thing is. As such, and since it actually has no bearing on this matter, it will instead become the topic of a whole ‘nuther thread.

I spent 40 minutes reading as many different pages on the Rick Ross site as I could, about half of them on subjects I have some experience with, and half of them on “cults” that I don’t know squat about. I come away from that reading impressed with the integrity and commitment to unbiased news aggregation used by the editors of the Rick Ross staff. I’m mystified why you call bullshit– unless it’s because there’s no evidence in support of your unshakeable defense of the FLDS crew? I understand your view of Government’s ideal societal role as being starkly different than mine, so I tentatively conclude that you are actually in support of using welfare to re-distribute wealth without undue scrutiny. Though I disagree strongly with this stance, I confess that many many people bring this particular belief with them to the polls and if they’re in the majority, then, we end up with a cultural status quo that is soft on welfare abuse. There’s no absolute judgement to be had here; we may have to just agree to disagree.

The other articles you cite are similarly inconclusive. My point about welfare fraud is not at all mediated by the AP wire article you reference, the Statesmen “rebuttal” was weak and un-authoritative, and while the cost of the bungled CPS raid was excessive, it shouldn’t be used to distract from the real possibility that this community has conspired to criminally defraud the government– and by extension every citizen who pays taxes. DO you feel that as a society we should only conduct criminal investigations that aren’t expensive? I’ll agree that the Slate piece was sensational and weak, good job with that link anyway.

I want to reiterate that I think you and I are in essential agreement regarding how poorly this investigation was conducted, how much unnecessary trauma was prosecuted on these families, how inappropriate it is to make moral judgements about alternative child-rearing or marriage models (providing they are self-sustainable anyway.) It seems like you’re focused on one part of this problem, and don’t want to let it go. I have wondered on several occasions what your reaction would be if your daughter entered a spiritual community where she was directed by the guru to get pregnant as wife number nine, but I’ll admit that line of inquiry is highly speculative and probably without bearing on the FLDS case.

I like matching minds with you, you’re respectful and more reasoned than most, and you always spur me to do real research and careful thinking. I’m sorry that job of yours kept you from examining Rick Ross’ work more closely. I admit I let several things slide today in order to give this thread due diligence and the fact I could get away with that gives me an unfair advantage in an exchange of this sort. Much love to you brother.

edit
Oh, and though I don’t share the FLDS theology, it doesn’t seem any nuttier than anybody elses, and at least they have a “social experiment” that seems to work– and thrive– within a certain context, compared to others which are perhaps closer to home. They can control as much of whichever states our representative democracy allows them to get away with, and it’s all the same to me. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work with politics in America?

If you type ‘flds welfare fraud’ into Google, Rick Ross’s site is the first thing that comes up. I also found a natty bit in Slate that keenly summarized the primary rumors. I can’t wait until Google has a ’sort by bullshit’ filter.

This AP wire article from May 15 quotes the Judge of the county proclaiming that the YFZ ranch had paid its taxes on time. On April 28th, the Stateman published this rebuttal of the welfare fraud rumors. They determined by simply calling county officials that there was, in fact, hardly any welfare money going into the ranch.

I don’t think anyone needed to draw up any plans to do anything to those people. I haven’t seen any evidence that they’ve been mean to their kids or taken any of my money before the state decided to prosecute them. According to this breakdown, we’ve already flushed $7.5 million away in a state that already does next to nothing for the poor, sick, or disabled.

I don’t even want to get into trying to find links for all of the horror stories about those poor kids in the incompetent clutches of CPS. It was a horrible culture shock to them that will probably turn them into a generation of FLDS true believers (if they weren’t already). Whatever the state had hoped it would accomplish to eliminate this group has only succeeded in making it much, much stronger. So if you already didn’t like their theology, just wait until they control the western half of the state.

http://contentlove.livejournal.com/1099738.html?thread=7342810#t7342810

I think at least one of you ought to point at some sources; it suits your agenda to dismiss this angle I think, so, with respect, I’ll not accept so easily your redirection. Discredited by whom? Let’s sprinkle a few facts in with the rhetoric, just for flavor, shall we?

There seem to be a few here, but it may be no more than merely a more substantial sounding set of opinions:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy5.html

also
http://www.swc-cfc.gc.ca/pubs/pubspr/0662420683/200511_0662420683-4_7_e.html
in particular the section marked Social Assistance

and
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=281915
local (to us) news

Bottom line: it was an inelegant snafu to separate children from mothers. But this is a community which has conspired together to defraud the government, stealing YOUR money and MINE using a religious justification. I’d love to see you draw up a plan for prosecuting that did not involve DNA testing and (at least temporary) isolation of kids in order to interview them away from parental and non-parental cues…

Agreed!

As far as whether there could have been a less adequate federal response, I agree that the situation has certainly worked out better than it could have been if ATF or ICE hotheads had been involved. All the same, it would have been a more adequate state response, if there had been real crime, to dispatch real law enforcement authorities to follow due process to arrest and prosecute said crime.

The ruling comes as a result of a document filed by Texas RioGrande Legal Aid last month. The TRLA is the largest provider of legal aid in Texas, on behalf of 48 FLDS mothers that TRLA is representing in their child custody cases.

“The way that the courts have ignored the legal rights of these mothers is ridiculous,” said TRLA attorney Julie Balovich. “It was about time a court stood up and said that was has been happening to these families is wrong.”

In the decision, the Court ruled that CPS failed to provide any evidence that the children were in imminent danger and acted hastily in removing them from their families. According to the Court, “The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the Department’s witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger.”

TRLA will be holding a press conference in front of the courthouse in San Angelo Thursday at 1:30 p.m.

Source.

Illegal: If things were really as perverse as all of the rumors had been, prosecution would have been like shooting fish in a barrel. As it stands now, the state doesn’t even have any active indictments on the matter, even after the extensive fishing expedition they went on, so it’s unclear why CPS is even involved.

Damaging: Frankly, I expect that your attitude toward Catholics isn’t far removed from that of the YFZ folks, so I can’t be sure that you’re not just reacting to the practice of religion as a community function. Consequently, your measure of “damage” in this case may be inappropriate or even irrelevant from other perspectives.

In any case, your attitude is a great example why everyone is supposed to be assured of due process. The big problem with CPS is that they bypass due process, so they can take any crank call or prank message and use it as a reason to remove kids from houses. Like they did at the YFZ ranch.